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The Tim Ferriss Show Transcripts

Episode 89: Laird Hamilton,

Gabrielle Reece, Brian MacKenzie

Show notes and links at tim.blog/podcast

Tim Ferriss: Hello, ladies and germs. This is Tim Ferriss, and welcome to

another episode of the Tim Ferriss Show, where I deconstruct

world-class performers to tease out and pull out the routines, the

habits, the breakfasts, the favorite books, the behaviors and so on

that you can use in your own life, borrow from these individuals

who have achieved the pinnacle of whatever their chosen field

might be, whether that’s chess, hedge fund managing, sports,

acting, government, you name it, military, it goes on and on. And

in this particular episode, we have a foursome that is very exciting,

folks, and I was very nervous about the tech in managing all of the

cables and so on, but it turned out even better than I could have

possibly hoped. It was after a workout with these people who all

could kick my ass in so many ways it is impossible to count, and

that is a good thing because if you are the strongest person in the

room, if you are the smartest person in the room, you’re in the

wrong room.

And we have three people.

So we have first Laird Hamilton, who is widely considered the

greatest big-wave surfer of all time. He is also a very innovative

influencer in modern board sports and surfing, so he is considered

either the creator or certainly popularizer of tow-in surfing, which

allows him and now many, many other people to surf waves bigger

than ever before possible and is largely responsible for the rebirth

of standup paddle boarding. If you’ve seen people stand up paddle

boarding, chances are on some level you have Laird to thank for it.

Laird has starred in many surfing films and was the centerpiece of

Riding Giants, a documentary about big-wave surfing, which if

you have not seen, you have to see. It will make your palms sweat

within the first few minutes. It’s insanity. And he’s also considered

the rider of the heaviest wave of all time, or at least at the time that

Surfing Magazine had him on the cover, and the only caption was,

“Oh, my God.”

So he’s been a contributing editor for Men’s Journal; he’s been on

Oprah, Charlie Rose, 60 Minutes, the Ellen DeGeneres Show, and

he’s also very well known, and I admire Larry for this, for using

his lifestyle and his skillset to raise money for charities, including

Race Across America, Pipeline for a Cure for Cystic Fibrosis,

RainCatcher, and Muscular Dystrophy, et cetera. He’s an awesome

dude.

And the only person perhaps as intimidatingly awesome is his

wife, Gabrielle Reece. Gabby has been named one of the 20 most

influential women in sports and is best known for her fantastic

success in volleyball; but she’s of course also done model, she’s

had starring roles as a trainer on the Biggest Loser, and Reece is

just incredible. And I’ve had a chance to work out with Gabby. She

is every bit as incredible as Laird, and they’re both about a foot

taller than I am, but let’s not go there. That’s okay. I feel okay in

my gnomish-like stature.

In any case, Gabby has also used her crossover success in these

different fields to become the first female athlete to ever design a

shoe for Nike, and she now serves as a fitness expert for Yahoo!

Health, among many, many other things.

The last person in our little menage-a-four – I don’t know how to

say that in French – is Brian MacKenzie. He is the founder of

CrossFit Endurance and the author of the New York Times best-

selling book Unbreakable Runner. Brian has created a lot of

controversy, and he was featured in the Four Hour Body for a lot

of it, by suggesting a very counterintuitive approach to distance

running, in which he challenges high-mileage runs, high-carb diets,

and incorporates a lot of intense strength training, in some cases

very brief strength training to conquer everything from 5Ks to

ultra-marathons. And many of you out there have used his

protocol, his sort of 8-week to 12-week protocol in Four Hour

Body to go from running nothing to running marathons and ultra-

marathons in record time.

So congratulations.

And Laird, for those of you who didn’t see it, was also one of my

surfing coaches in the Tim Ferriss Experiment, so just check that

out, iTunes.com/timferriss, two Rs and two Ss. And without

further ado, here is Laird, Gabby, and Brian.

Guys, welcome to the show. I’m so thrilled to have you guys here.

And I thought that we could just start off with a description of

what just happened because I came in here this morning terrified of

this workout – and Brian had something else in mind. And I came

out of the workout really exhausted, feeling great, and having done

things in the workout I didn’t think I was capable of. And I was

hoping, Laird, maybe you could just describe the training a little

bit.

Laird Hamilton: That seems like a perfect scenario.

Tim Ferriss: No, I was very surprised.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, it did all those things. Well, ultimately I think it’s about

challenging your beliefs, but also challenging your – you know,

your physicality.

So, I mean, within that scenario of, you know, the things that

we’ve done, which we’re thermo-regulating the heat, the ice, the

pool, the lack of breath, the effort of swimming and jumping and,

you know, all the physical stuff, I mean, there’s just so many

things happening simultaneously, I think it really is about just

complete confusion.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. And what I also realized, for those people that are not

familiar with Laird’s pool – and why would you be – there are

stairs. There’s a staircase built into the middle of the pool so that

people can walk down, but then you might thing, well, wouldn’t

you just float up to the surface? But you have everyone weighed

down with giant dumbbells.

Laird Hamilton: With giant dumbbells. Well, it’s got a set of steps that brings you

into the pool; these are steps that are underwater in the middle of

the pool.

Tim Ferriss: Correct. Yeah, correct. And what I realized –

Laird Hamilton: For when it’s empty.

Tim Ferriss: Right. So you can do your workouts in the pool and –

Laird Hamilton: It’s that far down.

Tim Ferriss: So Gabby, you gave me some very good advice. I just remember

holding dumbbells and you were like, “Your eyes don’t need to be

as wide open.” I just looked like, I don’t know, a cat in a corner I

guess probably, bug-eyed. And faster is not better, and I was

hoping maybe you could just elaborate on that because I think it’s

a really interesting concept that translates not just to the workout in

the pool but to a lot of things.

Gabrielle Reece: Well, we were just saying that earlier, that it’s very true to life that

it is more about with purpose and with a calm manner at times can

actually be more effective. And so the water really exaggerates all

of that and also forces you to sort of yield to that method. And so

really just looking around takes up oxygen, and so – and actually

you did very well today, so you have to give yourself some credit.

But a lot of times we’re so focused and our eyes open, like when

you play land sports and you go to focus, you do open your eyes.

It’s a focus mechanism, right?

Tim Ferriss: Right.

Gabrielle Reece: But in the pool it’s quite opposite where you have to relax

everything that you can relax so all the air goes to the places that

are doing the work.

Tim Ferriss: Right, your eyes, your jaw, everything has to relax.

Gabrielle Reece: Everything. And then it’s moving in a way that it’s what amount of

oxygen are you giving up for the amount of effort you’re putting in

and finding that sort of sweet spot of this effort, especially when

you’re not doing like really heavy, heavy weight and it’s more

about the breath-holding.

Tim Ferriss: Definitely. And I was – you know, Brian, we were chatting a

couple days ago when I was doing one of my usual walks in San

Francisco, and you got me very excited about the pool training,

obviously. And Rick, who we both know, Rick Ruben, who’s been

on the podcast, has talked about this. You were talking about using

the mask that I now have, as well as this training. And when I

asked you what you were most excited about these days, one of the

answers was the breath training.

And I’d just love to hear what you were doing with the breath

training, some of the results you’ve seen, because it’s such a

fundamental aspect of all life and sports. But having been exposed

to like Wim Hof and somebody that’s sort of come to the forefront

of my mind, but this is my first time ever really playing around

with it, of doing an exhale, then trying to swim lengths of a pool,

which is completely different. But what has been your experience

and how are you doing some of that training?

Brian MacKenzie: Well, I first was given that training mask by a buddy of mine

named Ki.

Tim Ferriss: Elevation training mask.

Brian MacKenzie: Yeah, elevation training mask. And, you know, I looked at it and I

was a little weirded out by it; but with anything I get, I’m like I’m

going to screw around with it, and if it makes sense for me to

screw around with it, I’ll continue to screw around with it. If it

doesn’t, I’ll toss it. And I immediately got a response out of my

diaphragm like when I took a breath.

Tim Ferriss: Had to use your diaphragm.

Brian MacKenzie: Had to use my diaphragm.

Tim Ferriss: And for those people who don’t have the visual, the mask, I guess

it looks almost like a mask you could use – right, a mask for

construction; you have the ventilation. You can change the amount

of airflow that’s permitted.

Brian MacKenzie: Correct. So their whole scheme is from like 3,000 feet to 18,000

feet, and you can change all of those settings. Laird likes to play

around with it a little further, which is typical, which is good, you

know.

Tim Ferriss: That’s so unlike him.

Brian MacKenzie: Hey, I know, it’s very unlike him. So anyway, I got a quick

understanding of this mask, and I saw something that I have seen

fault him with every athlete I’ve really ever worked with, is like

when you see a spinal fault or you see a mechanical fault –

Tim Ferriss: Fault meaning their posture is off.

Brian MacKenzie: Yeah, posture is off, position is off. So if I’m – and I’m making a

quarter extremity violation, I am literally probably most likely

making that fault with spinal mechanics.

Tim Ferriss: A quarter extremity violation meaning one of your limbs is doing

something funny?

Brian MacKenzie: Now your limb is actually compensating for making up for the lack

of stability that’s going on here. So think of being overextended or

being flexed too far forward. If I flex too far forward, I run into a

wall when I breathe. If I overextend, I run into a wall when I’m

breathing. If I don’t, I can breathe.

And this showed me immediately that I could get people who did

not understand this concept, which is a very hard thing to come by

– I mean, we could talk about it right now, and people are probably

like, okay, whatever, you know. But if I put the mask on, I

immediately go to my nose, so I’m using my nose to breathe,

which is, yes, you should be drawing in your breath for most of

your breathing through your nose, and you’re forcing that

diaphragm to work. So getting that concept down and then being

introduced to Laird and Gabby through my friend Ki, I came up

here. And it was just – it’s exactly like Laird said; you know, it’s

mask infusion. We’re kind of tossing the entire nuts and bolts at

you, and then it’s exactly as Gabby is explaining in the fact that it’s

like, look, you actually have to be conscious of what’s really going

on and controlled and like, hey, where are you focused?

The energy of, “Oh, my God,” that facial expression it literally

costing you energy. That costs.

Tim Ferriss: That costs you reps, yeah. That can cost you reps.

Gabrielle Reece: Or getting to the other side and then all your friends see you not

make it.

Tim Ferriss: And this has made more sense to me in being not only somebody

who is a competitor swimmer, somebody who’s a coach,

somebody who’s worked – I specialize in movement, but you have

to work – you will get efficient in that pool very quickly.

Brian MacKenzie: Right, because all of the – any energy leak is exaggerated.

Tim Ferriss: Yes.

Brian MacKenzie: And just so people have a visual once again, the first exercise we

did in the pool, I guess I had – I want to say started with 15-pound

weights, dumbbells, and then moved up. But you’re sort of sinking

to the bottom of the pool and then doing a shoulder press as you

jump up to the surface of the pool, and then you’re bringing your

arms down to your sides, almost like you’re swimming a stroke,

like a jumping jack in a big circle.

That’s when you take the breath at the top. And so immediately I

was like, oh, I’m holding my breath underwater, but I have to start

exhaling as soon as I go underwater; otherwise, I’m going to have

to exhale and inhale at the top, and that’s when I’m going to

swallow water.

Tim Ferriss: And it’s also going to shorten your amount of air you can get in if

you have to blow out, which is all, again, counterintuitive.

[Overlapping Comments]

Tim Ferriss: The learning curve was so fascinating to me because, even after 10

reps or 15 reps, I was like, oh, that thing that I was freaking out

about on rep three or four, completely unnecessary, right? And

then, Gabby, I think you mentioned this to me as I was doing one

of the exercises I was even more terrified of, which was holding a

dumbbell to my chest and swimming underwater back and forth.

Brian MacKenzie: Ammo box.

Tim Ferriss: The ammo box. Is if you feel like you can’t make it, exhale a little

bit, which is so counterintuitive.

Gabrielle Reece: I know. And you make room, too.

Brian MacKenzie: Yeah. Well, it also gives you time because your brain goes, well,

I’m exhaling, I’m going to be inhaling.

So your brain, again, it’s a bit of a confusion, like you confuse

yourself. You confuse your instincts, right, like the breath-holding

exhale drill. You want to breathe in. As soon as you exhale, you

have a mechanism that’s designed to breathe in because you have

pressure on the diaphragm. You want to breathe in. But once you

teach the body to resist against that and know it’s okay, that you’re

not going to breathe in right now because you still have the

oxygen, then it leads you to a new place.

Tim Ferriss: And what is – now, we’ve drained these glasses. But Laird, can

you elaborate on this very potent yellow elixir?

Gabrielle Reece: It’s good, isn’t it?

Tim Ferriss: It is good.

[Overlapping Comments]

Tim Ferriss: So we were doing the in-pool exercises and then we would do ice

bath for at least three months and then about 15 minutes’ minimum

in the hot box. So I was about to take – I felt like I was ready for a

nap, and then I had this magic concoction. What is in this

beverage?

Laird Hamilton: Well, that was fresh-squeezed turmeric root.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, and you have a whole box of this turmeric root.

Gabrielle Reece: It was sent from Kauai, but you can get it at the store.

Laird Hamilton: But fresh-squeezed turmeric root, liquid pepper extract, and then

raw honey and apple cider vinegar.

Gabrielle Reece: And water.

Laird Hamilton: That was fully diluted, by the way.

Tim Ferriss: No, that’s intense, yeah, but I really enjoyed it. And you also

showed me something earlier, which is about the size of a large

cat. It is a mushroom. What type of mushroom is this?

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, it’s called a chaga.

Tim Ferriss: Chaga. Pretty uncommon, hard to find from what I understand.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, rare more because it’s unknown, but also its uniqueness of

the habitat it comes from and then the ability to use it.

Most people just don’t know about it, so it’s – but it’s the most

powerful mushroom in the world. They say the spores are found in

the stratosphere. They found chaga spores like in the stratosphere

in space.

Gabrielle Reece: Well, isn’t it the only mushroom, too, that grows on a living

organism?

Laird Hamilton: Yes. Yeah. And doesn’t take from it. It’s not living –

Brian MacKenzie: It’s not a parasite, yeah.

Laird Hamilton: It’s actually supplying –

Tim Ferriss: A symbiotic relationship. I think today’s show, the theme for me

has just been fear so far, my own fear. So I’d love to talk about that

just a little bit. All three of you I think have sort of befriended fear

in some ways. So Gabby, when you were competing, or even now,

obviously world-class athlete, what was your self-talk like before a

big match or before a big event?

How do you prepare yourself for that?

Laird Hamilton: I’m not going to answer for her, but I want to preface, I want to

help you out with the question because I met Gabby on a show

called the Extremist, and she was the host when I met her. And she

came to interview me, and she’d already interviewed like 60 other

people and gotten an aspect of their sport. So for her, before a

match in volleyball, like I respect that as an athlete, but for her to

go out and jump out of a plane, to go hang-gliding, riding on some

crazy dragster bike, I mean, these are – because you’re going into –

I think, I mean, you can ask her the question; she can answer it

instead of me. But ultimately ask her the question of what was

heavier, like before a big match that you were going to play or like

get on a drag bike that you’d never been on and release the clutch

and go zero to 60 in a second.

Tim Ferriss: No, that’s helpful. That’s very helpful.

So I feel like even more of a weakling and coward than I did

before I asked the question, but let me –

Gabrielle Reece: I have to say that when you practice many hours and you dedicate

a lot of time to something, it does have a different value. You

know, if I was doing MTV Sports or the Extremist, there was a

margin of ‘I’m going to do the best I can.’ And certainly, you

know, Laird always jokes that if there’s like something on the line,

then I’m very good, like really focused. Like if you said to me,

“Hey, Gabrielle, let’s go for a mountain bike ride and we’re going

to go for like three hours, it’s totally routed and extreme downhill,”

I’d be like ‘I’m good.’ But if you said, hey, there’s this point and

purpose, I would do it then. So I’m a little different that way.

Tim Ferriss: You need the stakes or the incentive.

Gabrielle Reece: Kind of. And that’s maybe not great actually, to be honest with

you. So volleyball, I had a different emotional attachment because

I invested a lot of time and it meant a lot to me. So I had a different

expectation going into it.

I would kind of go through a ritual that would get me into a

different head space where I was switching from, you know, me as

a person to me the competitor, but –

Tim Ferriss: What did the ritual look like?

Gabrielle Reece: You know, it was sort of like the hair goes up in a ponytail and

then you start putting sunblock on and then I’d clean my glasses,

I’d put those on. It was all very thought out. I would detach away

from everyone except my teammates.

Tim Ferriss: How long did that pre-game ritual last?

Gabrielle Reece: I didn’t need long, like maybe 15, 20 minutes. I was superstitious,

too. I would never compete in the color red. If I wore something

and played badly, I would not use that visor or hair tie or pair of

glasses again. So I did have those weird things; but I think like any

athlete will tell you, there are certain things that I wish I had been

better at. It took me – I think having children has made me less

concerned with making everybody happy. And I think even when I

was competing; I was really concerned about how people felt.

So that was hard because it’s hard to try to be, oh, you’re trying to

kick ass, but then you’re worried about how people feel. It’s a wide

dynamic. So I would change personality, but I will truthfully say

that I also – I think I held myself back.

Tim Ferriss: So coming back to the parenting comment, so having kids has

made you care less about what people think?

Gabrielle Reece: Well, you just straight get meaner because you have no time.

Tim Ferriss: To people outside of your kids or to the kids also?

Gabrielle Reece: Everybody.

Tim Ferriss: Okay.

Gabrielle Reece: No, I think – no, because we have less time. And also as a woman,

we’re taught as young girls, hey, be nice, nice girls act like this.

And so it takes a long time to get to a place to go, okay, I’m going

to do things, say things, and believe in things that people aren’t

going to like, and I’m going to be okay with that. It takes – men do

that so much easier, and it takes women a very long time. And the

only athletes I’ve seen that do it very easily are generally the

youngest girl with all older brothers.

They understand it’s not personal much sooner than girls. And so,

you know – and the other thing I would say is I wasn’t really

groomed to be a champion. Like Terry Walsh, for example, her

whole life was groomed. She was told at an early age you’re a

winner, you can win, it’s okay to win, expect to win. I fell into

winning and learning to win, and so that was another thing I had to

overcome.

Tim Ferriss: How did you fall into winning?

Gabrielle Reece: By being really tall and being decently athletic and getting into

sports.

Tim Ferriss: But you didn’t have the sort of familial support?

Gabrielle Reece: I didn’t at all, and I was a late bloomer and all these things. So it

was all like, well, is it okay to win and like it’s kind of going good.

Like it was all that weird sort of things that you had to overcome.

So I think there are a lot of things you learn, and children put

things into real perspective for you. Age puts things into

perspective, and those usually happen kind of simultaneous. And

again, you have less time, so you kind of cut through the crap.

Tim Ferriss: Brian, so you’ve worked with a lot of athletes.

You know a lot of world-class coaches, and you’ve traveled a ton.

When you think of the word “successful,” who is the first person

that comes to mind?

Brian MacKenzie: Well, these two are easily at that list.

Gabrielle Reece: That’s because we’re sitting here.

Brian MacKenzie: Well, you asked the question and I’m sitting in front of two –

Gabrielle Reece: How about his wife? He has a badass wife.

Brian MacKenzie: My wife, you know.

[Overlapping Comments]

Tim Ferriss: So what are the characteristics? Why do you –

Brian MacKenzie: Without knowing who they were or what they – I knew who Laird

was, I knew who Gabby was. But irrelevant to the situation in what

I was brought into and how I met them, and at the top of that sits

happiness. You take away the financial side of stuff, you take away

the extreme, you take away the – like, hey, I was at the pinnacle of

sport, like I was – you know, I was world-class athlete. You take

that away, and you see how a dynamic is working and you see how

people are functioning. And they’re happy, they’re surrounded by

people who are happy. They are – it’s an ecosystem in itself. So I

think that’s – you know, it’s easy to just say that because they’re

sitting right here, you know, and because it’s the truth. You know,

I know plenty of people like that, but I also know plenty of people

that are miserable, that, you know, you would say, oh, they’re so

successful, and it’s like, hmm, what do you consider –

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, right. If you use the bank account maybe.

Brian MacKenzie: Yeah, the bank account or like – even like just behavior, like

behavior of like I’m threatened by you, I’m insecure about this. It’s

like, yeah, you’ve got some stuff to work on still. I’m not in a

situation like I’ve got to exit from this. It just doesn’t work enough

for me.

Tim Ferriss: So happiness, let’s talk about that for a second because one thing

that really struck me and why I like hanging out with you guys also

and wanted to hang out more was when I was filming for the Tim

Ferriss Experiment we did this surfing episode, which was a blast.

And thank you guys both for putting up with me for that period of

time, putting up with me now also.

But the memory that comes to me when people are like, oh, what

was it like hanging out with them, and it’s the time at home when

you were joking around with the kids and like doing the steam

baths and the ice baths. I was like, you know, it’s not just the

really, really, really good athletes who had maintained an

unbelievable level of physical performance; it’s that you seem to

have a very kind of integrated life as spouses and then with the

kids. But you obviously had some challenges growing up.

It wasn’t easy. What have you, Laird, like how have you guys

thought about parenting and what you are trying to do differently

with your kids?

Laird Hamilton: Well, I think for everyone you maybe want to be the parent that

you didn’t have or maybe you want to be the parent you think you

wanted. You know, you also – of course, depending on the

relationship with your parents, if you had an incredible one, then

you want to try to be the parent that you had. So there was parents

I – you know, some of the parents I had were parents I did want to

be and some of the parents I had were parents I didn’t want to be.

And so, you know, you try to – you know, you try to do the best

you can. I mean, you go from your instincts; you go from your

heart. I mean, when you really look at it, when I – if I look at the

most important thing for me in parenting, being parented as a

young child was being loved. It was like being loved was probably

– and if I can just – you know, loving your children can override a

lot of wrongs.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. How do you demonstrate that? It sounds like a weird

question, but I know a lot of smart people who are just not good

parents. They try, but they’re not good.

Gabrielle Reece: We do it different. So like, for example, Reece, our middle

daughter who is more similar to Laird and very emotional, she

would be going through something.

Laird Hamilton: Thank you.

Gabrielle Reece: No, she is. Straight up.

Laird Hamilton: And our younger daughter more similar to Gabby is a ruthless

killer.

Gabrielle Reece: True. Anyway, so Reece would be like upset about something, and

I’d be like, well, let’s talk about it, how are you feeling, what’s

going on, you know. Laird would walk in the room, kind of take

one look at her and just grab her and put her on the floor and hug

her, right? And so I think one thing that we’ve learned is we try

our best to be an ally friend. We never let the kids feel like they

can wedge between us ever. So that’s very helpful. And I think,

believe it or not, Laird is more touchy-feely, love them, you know.

Laird Hamilton: Well, they’re also girls. I mean, if we had some sons, you might be

– there might be a different relationship.

Gabrielle Reece: Maybe, that’s true.

Laird Hamilton: Because it’s male-female. Daddy’s little girls and Mommy’s little

boys. It’s just the nature of the dynamic. I mean, I had a mother

that I had an incredible relationship with, and you just have that

male-female connection.

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah. So I think you have that, and then, you know, I make sure

like I understand the nuances, like their favorite – they need this

certain clothing and like lessons and then they can talk to me about

their girl stuff. And, you know, they know I’m not going to

surprise them.

Laird Hamilton: But we’re inclusive, too, and we treat them like adults. We’ve

always spoken to them like adults. We treat them like an adult.

You know, where they say treat them like an honored guest if they

don’t act like one, you know, but ultimately we treat them, we take

them with us. When we go, we all go together.

And when we go to eat somewhere, I mean, we go to dinner parties

where no one brings their kids, but we bring our kids because

they’re just – otherwise we don’t go. And people that invite us

know that, hey, if they come, they’re coming.

Gabrielle Reece: It’s our family. And we’re tough on them. We’re tough on them.

We’re –

Tim Ferriss: In what ways are you tough on them?

Gabrielle Reece: I mean, we’re just – like if they do something that could be

perceived as not using really good judgment, there’s no like, well,

honey, you know we don’t do that in this house. It’s straight up

like ‘what are you doing?’ You know, so I think there’s a direct –

we have a very direct style of parenting, which thank goodness our

children are a certain way because for me personally my kids are

very stubborn and strong-willed and everything else. But it would

be much harder for me if I had a kid that was – that I’d have to

coddle more because I don’t know that verbiage as well. But listen,

I’ve had to say I’m sorry many times. That’s another thing you

learn as a parent, you have to learn to say sorry because you blow

it.

So you can – sometimes you can go, hey, you know what, I am

extra tired today and my fuse is short and I am being unfair to you,

and I’m sorry. Like you have to learn that you’re imperfect and

kind of open that door up, too. Like there are times that you go,

hey – you know, I always say to my girls do you feel loved

enough, you know, because you want to know. And they’re like,

oh, come on, Mom. But I think you should ask.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Well, just asking says a lot, right? Even if they like brush it

off, like I would imagine kids –

Laird Hamilton: Well, it’s also respect. By asking them, respect. And also you’re

showing them it’s okay to not be perfect because we’re not perfect

either. So we’re not demanding some perfect out of them which is

totally unattainable. Who can do that?

Gabrielle Reece: But having said that, like right now our almost 20-year-old

daughter, she doesn’t love us right now. Straight up, like she

doesn’t – she’s not loving us right now. So okay. So it’s not like

ooh, la, la, la.

Laird Hamilton: And it’s interesting, Brian’s comment talking about, you know,

having that happiness or contentment is a sign of success. And I

always said as a parent, to be a successful parent would be that you

could raise a content human because I don’t know that many.

So if you could actually be a parent that raises a content human,

good parenting.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. And what I’ve also noticed, just with you guys – and then,

Brian, I want to get your take on a bunch of things – is that you

have – you mentioned the kind of wrestling to the ground. You

have a very physical relationship with your kids. And I think it’s –

no, no, no, but it’s like it’s a very – as someone who’s only

recently gotten back into physical play, doing stuff like yoga, it’s

been incredibly effective at anxiety reduction, relaxation, and just

feeling grounded and connected to other people. So I think that

that’s also something that has struck me, is just how you use a lot

of physical interaction with your kids.

Gabrielle Reece: But think about Hawaii, too. Like if you – if my kids are here and

you go to leave, they’re going to get up and walk you to the door

and say goodbye. In Hawaii, when you see an auntie or an uncle,

you give them a hug.

There’s a touching component of like tactile and think about even

animals, right? Like if my kid does something, I’m going to grab

her arm. Like even if it’s, you know, physical in play, but it’s just

physical like we’re connecting.

Laird Hamilton: And I also think that the physical is a reflection of the emotional,

you know, because if you do yoga and it’s an intense position and

you’re having all this stuff, but this is for spiritual enlightenment.

This is to come to a higher level of consciousness, but it’s a

physical act. So in a way, this physical relationship we have makes

them mentally stronger, makes them mentally – you know, all

these things are just reflection, these physical reflections of these

emotional states. So all of a sudden emotionally they’re a lot more

open and doing things and I want to be tough and all that stuff.

Tim Ferriss: Well, it’s like the training in the pool earlier, same element of

transfer. Brian, you looked like you had something to say. I do

have another question for you also.

Brian MacKenzie: Well, I think this all adds to – this is happiness. This is – they’re

having fun with their kids.

There’s only really a couple other people, and other person that

really comes to mind in the same way that there’s a family like

this, is Kelly. And everything – I mean, I’m a part of that family.

Like I am literally – I don’t live there anymore. I used to live five

doors down. But I’d go up there; I’d stay at the house. I’m with the

girls, I help the girls get ready. I’ll take them to school. The whole

process is this whole auntie-uncle, this whole thing of being happy

and are we having fun. If we’re not having fun, what are we doing?

Gabrielle Reece: But they seem even happier than we are. Sometimes I feel like

Laird and I are like rough around the edges a little bit. Like, you

know, there are no secrets and it’s kind of – you know, like I feel

like when I see Kelly, it feels like lighter and nicer. I envy that in

some people.

Brian MacKenzie: But Kelly is Kelly, but you two, there has been very rare that I

have seen almost a – the same type of dynamic happening where

you have a husband-wife combination that is – that works in the

dynamic that it does.

Tim Ferriss: Well, here’s a question for you: So the two examples that you

brought up, right, Kelly and Juliet, the two of you, they work out

together, right? And so people say sometimes, you know, those

who work out together stay together. Can you think of anybody

offhand who does not exercise together, spouses who are very

happy in the same way? Can you guys? I’m just curious.

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: You can?

Gabrielle Reece: Because I have friends, they function better when the two live their

worlds and then they come together because in a way, even though

Laird and I are independent, I think we both need that touchstone

with each other. And it isn’t maybe even the training because the

joke is the only time we train together is in the pool because it’s

underwater and we can’t talk, because we don’t train together on

the land. Like Laird is my confidante and someone that I go to to

get – bounce ideas off or a mentor in other ways, but we don’t

actually train together.

Too many – too bossy, both. So that’s the running joke. Like we

don’t – so the pool is cool because –

Laird Hamilton: Her class is too hard.

Gabrielle Reece: Oh, yeah, right. Like the joke is like we can train in the pool

because we’re under the water.

Tim Ferriss: Because you can’t smack-talk.

Gabrielle Reece: Or just like we should do it like this; no, I should do it like that.

You don’t –

Laird Hamilton: When we used to play volleyball, I used to be the practice dummy.

I would ride home in the back of the truck with the dogs.

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah, because we’d fight.

Laird Hamilton: Like I would be in the back with the dogs in the truck.

Gabrielle Reece: And I’d be driving the car; I’m like that (mumbling) underneath

my breath. And Laird would be sitting there and one of the dogs

would be licking his face and he’d be pissed. And my team like

would win on some bad call, and he’d be like, oh, you girls feel

good about winning like that? And we’re like, yeah, like you don’t

get it, like any way to win. And Laird just can’t understand that. So

to be honest, like let’s not glorify it. We do things together, but

there’s a lot of space because when you – days are long and when

you’re – and years, right? Like we’re going on 20 years. It’s like

you have to find that pace. And there are some people, if they had

9-to-5 jobs, maybe they should train together. So we have a

different deal, right?

Laird Hamilton: But the number one thing in all successful relationships, 10,000

couples, there’s only one thing that everybody had in common, no

matter what the dynamic, because there’s all the different

dynamics. One thing only. What is it?

Tim Ferriss: Great sex.

Gabrielle Reece: That’s a good call. That’s a good call.

Laird Hamilton: That was probably the second. The first thing, that the man

respected the woman. The number one thing, and I guarantee you

that Kelly respects his wife. I guarantee you.

[Overlapping Comments]

Brian MacKenzie: So right there, those three couples, right away the man respects –

Gabrielle Reece: But can I say one thing? And I know all those dynamics differ, like

the woman’s the breadwinner, the man’s the breadwinner, she’s

dominant, he’s dominant, whatever; but ultimately more times than

not is if the woman can refrain from trying to change or mother her

partner, she has a greater opportunity of putting herself in a

position where the guy will respect you.

Brian MacKenzie: It’s just – it’s support.

Gabrielle Reece: That’s it.

Brian MacKenzie: It’s support.

Gabrielle Reece: A man needs support. I mean, I love you guys and you’re all

strong, but you’re very fragile, and you need to be like supported

and help you fully realize your voice, whatever that is.

Brian MacKenzie: Of course, because we’re expendable and so we have to go out and

die for you at some point, so we better be getting supported. You

better support me because I’m going to go run in front of

tyrannosaurus rex for you.

Tim Ferriss: So how do you best support – as a woman how do you best support

your male counter –

Gabrielle Reece: Your partner?

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, partner, without mothering? What’s the –

Gabrielle Reece: Well, I had a great education, first and foremost. I’ll be honest with

you, I picked a partner who there was just no chance in hell, right?

So Laird said to me the first couple years we were together – and

unfortunately, his mom passed away the second year we were

together. I had a mom, and she died; and he made it very clear. So

what it did is it let me off the hook.

Tim Ferriss: Meaning I don’t need another –

Gabrielle Reece: Don’t mother me.

And so what it did is it made me switch my brain right then where,

hey, that’s off the table, because women by nature, we can’t help

it, we’re nurturers, right? So sometimes that seeps over, like, hey,

honey, that joke was kind of inappropriate at the dinner table,

you’re talking kind of loud, all that. And then what happens is we

somehow – because the man’s trying to be loving and stuff. They

pacify us and then they change all the ways we want them to, and

then we don’t want them. So it’s a great thing where you just say,

hey, I’m going to pick a partner that I feel like our value system is

similar, we may get there very differently, but our – kind of how

we wind up on some of the big items are the same. And also what

you learn is, for example, Laird is – when you’re with Laird, you

feel really loved. Like when he directs that at you, it’s for real,

right?

But it’s connected to I’m restless; I need adventure, all these other

things. So you sort of say – you start to understand, hey, these

things over here that make this person who they are, I’m going to

love all of it.

Laird Hamilton: Ignore the fact that he talks over me and, you know –

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah, these are small things, because you have to start looking at

the big things, you know, like they’re doing the best they can,

they’re honest. You know, it’s like all these important things. And

you let it ride. Oh, yeah, the hair, that’s another story. When I was

like – I think I was 27 or -8, and Laird said to me – I had said

something about, you know, I took things way more personal. Of

course, you do. And you go, oh, yeah, that’s not my thing. He said

– I said something, and Laird goes, yeah, but I’m here every night.

And in my mind, I thought, well, duh, I’m here every night, too.

But I didn’t really know what that meant. For a man to say, hey,

I’m going to really try to be with one woman, they’re giving you

all – most of what they’ve got. They’re giving you like 80 percent.

And for a woman, maybe she’s giving you 35. So it’s like to

understand, too, like understand people’s language on how they

give.

Let’s say I was very shy and I came out and I was having a very

nice, you know, sort of conversation with you. Maybe I’m giving

you 200 percent because of my nature. So I think it’s also starting

to understand like, who they are, they’re giving how they can give,

and receiving it that way. But don’t try to change them because I

always tell my friends if you want to be with a king, you have to

treat them like a king. And if you’re always like, no, I don’t want

to do that, they’re a pile in the corner.

Tim Ferriss: Exactly. Brian, let me shift gears for a second here. What is the –

this is going to be a jarring transition, but it’s my specialty as an

interviewer, awkward segues. Your most gifted book, what book?

And I’m going to ask you guys the same question. What book or

books have you gifted the most to other people?

Brian MacKenzie: It’s probably between two.

[Indiscernible] or the – it’s Dan Millman. Way of the Peaceful

Warrior. That’s like a starter for anybody like I mentor or I work

with, like who’s looking –

Tim Ferriss: Why is that a starter? What –

Brian MacKenzie: Because it takes you from a basic like, hey, here’s what’s going on

to like here’s like potential, here’s ultimate potential. Like you

can’t fathom that. You continue to put one foot in front of the

other, you can achieve these things; you can do what you set your

mind out to, if you’re willing to take those steps. It may not happen

tomorrow, but it can happen. And I think [Indiscernible] is just –

once you get to a certain level, it’s like, wow, like every little piece

is like, whoa.

Tim Ferriss: Layers upon layers upon layers.

Brian MacKenzie: That can make sense at any point of the day for me at this point,

and that’s I think the beauty in it.

Tim Ferriss: Cool. Thank you. Gabby?

Gabrielle Reece: Oh, my goodness. I think – you know, this sounds ridiculous, but I

read Atlas Shrugged when I was 15, and I gave that book to a lot of

people because it shifted just sort of how I looked at certain things.

And obviously on the simple read, I think I’ve given The

Alchemist to quite a lot of young people because it’s that reminder

as you go out in the world and you’re looking for all these things

that sometimes it is within us or right – you know, again, we laugh

like we’re back on Kauai. Laird grew up in Kauai. You know, it’s

like you go around the whole world.

Tim Ferriss: Sometimes what you’re looking for is right in front of you.

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah, and I think it’s more true to the idea of even something

about yourself or marriage or whatever. It’s like it’s just right

there. You just have to work at it.

Tim Ferriss: With Atlas Shrugged, it’s very popular in Silicon Valley of course.

Gabrielle Reece: Is it?

Tim Ferriss: It’s very, very popular.

Gabrielle Reece: Well, I was 15 when I read that book.

Tim Ferriss: That’s a big book.

Gabrielle Reece: I was a much heavier person when I was younger. I’ve lightened

up a lot.

Tim Ferriss: What did – I mean, is that still a book that you would gift to people

or was that just for a period of time?

Gabrielle Reece: I think I was in my “the world is not as it seems” phase in my life,

you know, probably until I was about 23 or -4. But I think it’s just

sort of a good reminder about – it’s not about not taking things at

face value, but it’s about maybe creating your own truth because

we don’t – we can’t really figure out any other truth.

Tim Ferriss: Right, and objective truth that applies to everyone.

Gabrielle Reece: Right. So I think I certainly would give it now, but maybe I would

give other books now.

Tim Ferris: Got it. Laird?

Laird Hamilton: Well, I’m going to go big here. At one point I felt there was only

one book in my opinion in the world, which was the Bible. And

I’ve been through it quite a few times.

Tim Ferriss: And you were raised religious?

Laird Hamilton: No.

Tim Ferriss: You were not?

Laird Hamilton: No. But that’s where I found the truth, and I found that – and I

didn’t gift it as much as that I gifted the teachings in it, and I think

the parables are such a – I love parable teaching because it’s so

tangible. But when you look at just the basis of what – you know,

what I find is that when you find the truth, it doesn’t matter what

the religion is because the truth is a golden thread that winds its

way through all kinds of stuff. And so that just was the first book

that I found a lot of truth in it, and then I was able to share that

with people, parables. And then you run into so many situations in

your life. And if you just look at basically the Ten Commandments

and you live that way, it would increase the quality of your life.

Now, you know, as a young kid, books that had the most influence

on me, you know, I mean, the Lord of the Rings was like a huge

thing. When I was young, my mom read those books to me before

I could even read, and so I went through the trilogy of those as a

young man and, you know, Jonathan Liebesman, [indiscernible]

and the Doom and all these other fantasy books.

But the Bible really – I mean, that thing just had – you know, then

now if you ask me today like what book am I gifting everybody

today, I’m gifting Natural Born Heroes. You know, like that’s my

book of the –

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah, they have a man book club.

Laird Hamilton: In the gym. We train together and we have a book of the week or

the book of the month. And whoever gets one, we go and – you

know, of course Rick’s always a big contributor to –

[Overlapping Comments]

Laird Hamilton: Everybody’s contributing, you know. Deep Survival is another

great –

Tim Ferriss: Deep Survival?

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, Laurence Gonzales. That’s an incredible book in speaking

about just fear and dealing with fear. But this Natural Born Heroes

is my – that’s my latest kind of craze, just because of – you know,

again, but all of these, all – you know, no fiction stuff. Nonfiction

truth.

The way my mind works, I don’t want – I don’t want – I mean, it’s

almost like I had the fiction when I was young to create

imagination and fantasy, but really what I hunger is truth, like what

is the truth, what are facts, give me information that I can apply. I

want to be able to apply this stuff to life.

Tim Ferriss: So here’s a question about some truth and testing truth that I’m

really curious to ask you, and that is –

Gabrielle Reece: You’re into testing stuff?

Tim Ferriss: You know, every once in a while. Every once in a while when I’m

walking around with a drip bag attached to me, occasionally.

You’re known as an innovator in the sort of water sports world,

whether it’s tow-in surfing, foil board, or any number of other

things.

[Overlapping Comments]

Tim Ferriss: But he’s evolved, he’s grown legs. Moved on to land. What has

enabled you to contribute in that way? Because people have been

playing in the water for a very long time. What is the – what are

the characteristics or the moments that led to you being able to

have these breakthroughs or contribute to these innovations?

Laird Hamilton: I think a combination of a couple of things. I think there’s a little

bit of a formula that I’ve been fortunate enough to be subjected to,

to how I was raised and then, you know, like again being exposed

to the Lord of the Rings and Doom and some of these really

incredible imagination – sort of development of imagination. You

know, Thomas Edison is quoted as saying, you know, all you need

to be an inventor is an imagination and a pile of junk. And so, you

know, I lived at the end of a road where you didn’t call people to

fix stuff; you fixed it and, you know, you didn’t have anything that

was – you couldn’t go buy stuff.

You had to make stuff. And so, you know, and then I grew up in a

way where I was – you know, there was a racial thing because I

was not liked for how I was born. So then I would be like, well,

why would I be worried about what people think when I do

something that makes them upset. They’re already upset. They’re

upset for how I was born. So some of those things, you know,

where you have an imagination and you’re willing to subject

yourself to failure, that’s a big part of it, of any innovation. You’ve

got to be willing to crash and burn and at the cost of looking like a

fool, people laughing at you and not letting that dictate what you

do. I think peer pressure – you know, if it was up to other people

they wouldn’t let you do anything. No one would create anything

because that’s just stupid, whether it’s your dad or, you know, I

mean, I used to have – you know, I had a teacher tell me once in

school you can’t eat your surfboard.

Tim Ferriss: Oh, meaning like that’s not going to pay the bills.

Laird Hamilton: No. You’re never going to make a life out of using that or – I’m

just saying those are all the, you know –

Tim Ferriss: Worst advice ever.

Laird Hamilton: So I think those are a lot of the factors, right? Those are the key

elements. I think if you look at anybody who’s willing to subject

themselves to failure and –

Gabrielle Reece: And relentless pursuit. Understand once they’re in the wheelhouse,

it is like not going away. You can talk about it and write it down

and do it again.

[Overlapping Comments]

Gabrielle Reece: Well, it’s weird because it isn’t – it’s weird. It’s not so

destructively obsessive, but it’s just this tone that you kind of

notice you’ve got; it’s still there, huh? Is stand-up paddling. So

1998 or -7 or so, Laird decided, oh, I’m going to, you know, try the

– it’s another way to train. He was on a long board using kayak

paddles and then taping handles. And then before you know it,

we’re driving to some guy’s house that he’s asked to – Milama, is

that who it was? On Maui.

Like extended wooden paddle, so he did for the canoe paddlers in

Hawaii. So Laird went to him and said, oh, can you make it

longer? And then breaking that one and breaking another one and

then, you know, just trying new boards and, oh, that guy doesn’t

have boards, blanks big enough for a stand-up paddle board, so

I’ve got to find a guy. Oh, there’s a guy in San Diego. Just like

going nonstop, nonstop, break things, go out, and just – and then

on top of it, do it every day, like down-winder, you know, another

down-winder.

Tim Ferriss: What’s a down-winder?

Gabrielle Reece: So in Maui when it’s too windy, you know, to surf maybe, that

means the wind is probably up. And in Maui, it’s very windy. So

he gets dropped off at one point and then goes with the wind down.

With stand-up paddling, that was really one of the best first things

that he used it for. And then, you know, he incorporated surfing

later. But, I mean, just persistent and constant, every day.

Even foiling. I really – if I look at foiling, it’s like Laird ultimately

has been practicing rigorously for the last seven years, quietly,

patiently, to get a ride and maybe another ride coming but a ride

that he had this winter on a wave that he’s been secretly thinking

about probably for 40 years of his life. So there’s a patience but a

relentlessness that I’m like, wow, that is – kudos to you that you

hang in there.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah.

Gabrielle Reece: It’s a lot.

[Overlapping Comments]

Gabrielle Reece: Well, it’s pretty impressive though.

Tim Ferriss: You of course have exhibited –

Gabrielle Reece: No, no, it’s very different. I would never –

Tim Ferriss: Because you’ve achieved a lot in many different areas. So how is it

different?

Gabrielle Reece: Well, Laird says like I’m, you know, stern – I’m a low, steady

flame. Laird goes at it at a different degree. He gets there much

quicker.

Tim Ferriss: Burns hot for a very long period of time.

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah. And also just physically that he can express himself with

that kind of endurance is different. A lot of mine is mental. It’s a

different – it’s just different.

But I really respect that in Laird because also he does it when no

one is watching, he doesn’t tell any – he’s not talking about it

unless it’s to have a conversation about how to approach it, attack

it, improve it. And so it is a very personal quest that he’s on for

reasons of his own. Like one day we were driving up PCH, and

there was like literally all these stand-up paddlers out there. And I

can remember clearly when it was Laird dragging his one friend

out there for seven or eight years before anyone was stand-up

paddling. And I said how does that make you feel? And he goes, I

knew I was having so much fun. So it was never the idea of like,

oh, I’m going to somehow bring this into modern day; it was I’m

doing this for myself because I have an idea that I want to express.

And so it’s one of the things I appreciate. Or will it bring me fun

and enjoyment? Straight up, you know.

Tim Ferriss: Well, maybe that’s part of the reason you guys are happy, because

that’s set in high on the list.

You’re laughing, Laird, but – could you explain to people also

because – the foil boarding. Now, this takes my like fear factor to a

whole new level because you’re basically – well, why don’t you

explain it for folks? But it’s not like you just jump off the board if

things are going sideways, right? I mean, so what is a foil board?

Laird Hamilton: Well, it’s a surfboard or just a board like a wakeboard with a big

strut, like a foil, which is – you know, you see the America’s Cup

guys are using them, and it’s a big shaft.

Gabrielle Reece: It’s three feet. It’s over three feet long.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, 48 inches tall.

Tim Ferriss: Beneath the board?

Laird Hamilton: Beneath the board. It’s like a big fin. It makes the board fly off the

water, but you’re attached to it with snowboard boots and bindings,

which, you know, you don’t swim well with boots. But it’s

something that we’ve kind of came upon as – you know, all of it’s

about evolution. You try to ride the biggest surf in the world, and

so first we started, you know, with prone guns conventionally and

then –

Tim Ferriss: What are prone guns?

Laird Hamilton: Like when you lay down on these big guns, and then we knew –

Tim Ferriss: Guns is the board?

Laird Hamilton: Yeah. When we say gun, it’s designed for giant waves. It’s what

all the – you know, the modern, manual way to catch waves.

Tim Ferriss: Got it.

Laird Hamilton: And it’s an ancient way of doing it. But you know, we found a cap

and we realized there was a ceiling. And then the –

Tim Ferriss: That’s because the bigger waves move faster or –

Laird Hamilton: Bigger waves move faster; we’re not able to physically keep up.

And that’s where the concept of towing came from, the idea of

being towed onto one and using the power to match the speed of

the wave in order to ride bigger surf. And when we did that, it

made us – allowed us to ride smaller equipment that was actually

faster.

Tim Ferriss: Right.

Laird Hamilton: And then we could perform on these giant waves.

Tim Ferriss: And when you say giant, just for people who may not be familiar

with big-wave surfing, what are we talking?

Laird Hamilton: Well, I mean, you know, you start – a giant starts at, you know, 50-

foot faces, and then it goes above.

So 60, 70, 80-foot faces. I mean, that’s giant. Big surf is – you

know, when we say it’s big, it’s 50 and below. And then when it

goes to giant, and then it goes to like ridiculous or enormous, you

know, whatever. There’s big, there’s giant, there’s enormous. You

know, and then everybody can get into 82.5 feet and all that stuff,

but we found a cap, you know, at manual. We found a cap.

Ultimately we found a cap with tow-in.

Tim Ferriss: For tow-in. And what is the cap?

Laird Hamilton: Probably in the range of a hundred feet. So that’s – and we know

there’s a cap there. We know that there’s an ability –

Brian MacKenzie: He knows because he’s been there.

Laird Hamilton: So we know there’s a cap. And so at that point, and the continual

pursuit was how do we get – what are we going to need to do? And

we know that the only way we can do that is to not be on the

surface because surface tension is the thing that creates the most

drag, which is what is stopping us once the waves are moving at a

certain speed.

Tim Ferriss: Now, what was the moment or the conversation or the event where

it was like, holy shit, like we could do this? Like because the idea

of putting the strut, having that foil-like effect on a board, it hadn’t

occurred previously.

Laird Hamilton: Well, no, it actually – you know, I always say every day there’s no

new idea, just a new application of an old idea. So this – there’s a

seated foil called an air chair. It sat in a garage on Maui. And one

summer we were playing around, and my friend goes, oh, this

guy’s got this weird contraption. So we went over to the house. It

was in the corner. It had dust on it, cobwebs. We were like what’s

that? Oh, it’s some stupid thing called an air chair. I mean, it

wasn’t bad enough that he wouldn’t let us keep it; but we got it and

we rode it and we were in –

Tim Ferriss: Now, were you being towed behind something or –

Laird Hamilton: And you’re strapped to it.

Gabrielle Reece: I think Murphy created it.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, yeah, and you’re strapped to it with a seat, like – and I

thought it was for handicapped initially because the position was

very – you’re strapped with a belt.

Tim Ferriss: Wheelchair-like.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah.

Brian MacKenzie: They used to tow people behind boats with them.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah. And now they have a new one – yeah, so now they have the

sky ski, where they do flips and people ride these things and do

amazing things on them, and you’re towed behind a boat, like a

water ski boat. And so we got one, and the first thing we wanted to

do was stand on it because we go, listen, again, part of our model

is stand up, stand up on the golf port, stand up on stand-up feeling,

stand up, like standing up, a better position to be in. We’re

humans. You know, seated is not great, crawling is not wonderful,

laying down is even worse. So we – you know, so we started to

stand on. And as soon as we stood on it, we go, oh, we can stand. I

mean, it was hard because we were using the seat and kind of –

and we didn’t have bindings. And so –

Tim Ferriss: That sounds extraordinarily precarious.

Laird Hamilton: Very bad. And it has a big, sharp blade on the bottom of it, so it’s

not something you don’t want to be attached to because if the thing

comes around, it’s – you know; it could be a bad problem. So then

we just took that, and we asked the guy if it was okay if we – if we

played with it, as long as we didn’t damage any of it. He said sure.

So I took the foil out of the board, and I took a wakeboard and we

made kind of a makeshift housing so that the foil could fit on there.

And I put snowboard boots on it because we had been doing a lot

of snowboarding. And within, you know, the first day or two, all of

a sudden we’re standing on this thing and flying. And as soon as

we stood and flew and we knew we could control it, we were like,

oh, now we have to go on the waves. We were like this is going to

be for wave riding.

Gabrielle Reece: You towed behind a ski boat for like almost three years, maybe

more.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah. And flat water.

Gabrielle Reece: Like there’s practice, lots of practice.

Not to mention, weren’t you messing around with the hippity hop?

Wasn’t that the hippity hop, or was that for tow surfing?

Laird Hamilton: No, the hippity hop was for – that was for –

Tim Ferriss: So what is the hippity hop?

Gabrielle Reece: Laird used to go out in front of our house in Maui. It was the

hippity hop, and he would try to do spare air.

Tim Ferriss: I am so lost. What is a hippity hop?

Gabrielle Reece: What? When you were a kid?

Tim Ferriss: I have no idea what that is.

[Overlapping Comments]

Gabrielle Reece: And like the face of a horse on it or something. Laird used to take

those, fold them up really small, and attach it to spare air, which is

like basically one shot of air if you’re a diver or somebody under.

And in case – he was trying to figure out ways to have water –

Laird Hamilton: What we were looking to do – it was pre-floatation, and we were in

giant surf. We were still kind of searching for floatation because

we were worried about –

Tim Ferriss: Pre-floatation, you mean like the vests?

Gabrielle Reece: Yeah.

Tim Ferriss: Okay, pre-life vest I guess.

Laird Hamilton: Yeah, but this is pre us using life vests in giant surf. Now it’s

everybody uses floatation devices in the giant surf.

Gabrielle Reece: So let’s just say there are a lot of stages between that. Now Laird is

riding with Terry and they’re doing in Kauai three or four years

behind boats and skis. One broken foot.

Laird Hamilton: Because we were in the beginning of the conception of kiting as

well, so we –

Tim Ferriss: Kite boarding?

Laird Hamilton: Yeah. I mean, more or less the modern tow board is what made

kite-boarding possible initially, and then the wakeboards came in

after. But we were the first ones to get the French –

Gabrielle Reece: The non-restartable kites.

Laird Hamilton: The non-restartable, right, right, where you just release the guy and

he just flies until he craps and then it was over. And sometimes

you’d be like two miles out to sea with a giant quilt. Have you ever

tried to swim with a quilt? It’s very hard. Like a giant quilt, with a

quilt and a lunch tray. Literally the board looks like a lunch tray

and a quilt, and it’s like you’re two miles out and you’re looking at

the shore and you’re like this is not a good day for me.

Tim Ferriss: So how does the hippity-hop fit into all this?

Gabrielle Reece: Well, because it’s all – I’m just saying it was all part of like

simultaneously trying to figure out the equipment and how to ride

it and use it, how to be safer and make it possible.

Tim Ferriss: So would he be like on the foil board with the hippity-hop between

his legs or –

Gabrielle Reece: No, at first – no, he’s too smart for that. He’d be with it folded up,

and then he’d go out where there’s some, you know, white water

messing around, and then he’d implode or –

Laird Hamilton: Get dropped off and then pull it, and then we started just seeing if

it was okay. So we’d have a pre-inflated –

[Overlapping Comments]

Laird Hamilton: Dropped off in front of the giant wave, and then – but we realized

that the hippity-hop just hit you in the head, and you’d come up

and you’d be face-down and the hippity-hop would be out of the

water but you would still be under. So we – I hopped off the

hippity-hop.

Brian MacKenzie: This goes back to like what she was talking about with the whole

incessant like I’m just going to do this, but here’s the thing: Is I

actually know guys who have taken – who have attempted to do

the foil boarding, and they just gave up because they’re like it’s too

hard, it’s too difficult. They did not have the patience or the time to

want to invest themselves into something, which is like – which is

also why a lot of this stuff just works, like with the relationships

that they have and even the relationship I have with them, is it is a

commitment.

It’s a full commitment.

Tim Ferriss: Now, why do you think Laird sticks to it when these other people

don’t? Do you think it’s – and I won’t make it a totally multiple-

choice question; these are the options kind of running through my

head, right, just having observed how you guys live. Like is it

something innate; possible, right? Is it influences that he’s had? Is

it the peer group that he surrounds himself with or some other

factor? Or all?

Brian MacKenzie: All of the above. Because like I grew up in a very similar fashion

where I was very rebellious, where I was told I wasn’t going to be

able to do things. I didn’t. I screwed around. And now it’s like you

come around full circle to that to where you learn how to get good

at something you were good at.

And where he learned early on is what it seems is that, wow, this

worked, this happened, I’m making a living off of surfing or

whatever that was that – and he’s not doing it in a contest. He’s

doing it on his own. Like she’s grown up in an environment where

it wasn’t the greatest family environment to where she’s thriving

and they’ve created this whole thing where, you know, I was able

to do things that I shouldn’t – like I was told I wasn’t going to do,

and I did. And it was because of the – I was so passionate about

what I was doing and I was willing to commit to that and continue

to see the results of what that brought, but that became, oh, this is

what makes sense, you know, and, I mean, I just wrote something

on an Instagram post yesterday kind of about this where it’s like if

you don’t have the ability to pay attention enough to your training

to understand what rest is, you’re now in an OCD-like behavior to

where it’s like you don’t even understand how you’re going to get

better at something, where it’s just paying attention.

And it’s like, hey, if I’m paying attention –

[Overlapping Comments]

Laird Hamilton: But also part of paying attention is being aware of what’s

happening and seeing it before it’s done. I mean, at the end it’s

about envisioning it, too, right? You can see what – you have to be

able to see it to continue to pursue it.

Tim Ferriss: Okay, this is a super important point. So for yourself, what would

be an example of that?

Laird Hamilton: Of seeing it and being able to – well, just any one of the things I’ve

been involved with, knowing, like for example, we were able to

foil some giant surfs this season. Now, up until then we haven’t

really ever been – I was in doubt of being able to – even

instinctively I knew that this definitely the way to do this, but I

didn’t – I haven’t seen it.

You know, and again, it’s that ability to see it before –

Tim Ferriss: Envision it, the possibility.

Laird Hamilton: Yes, envision it to know it, and then you have all those other things

that you need to pursue, but you have to actually be able to see to

keep you –

Tim Ferriss: Motivated. Brian, I have a question for you because you’ve worked

with so many athletes, and I might want to ask you guys the same

question, and that is – and Kelly is an expert at this as well. But

what would your advice to be a, say – it doesn’t really matter the

age, 30, 35, 40, doesn’t matter, but a former athlete who’s beaten

themselves up – may or may not be me – no, it’s not me. But

somebody who’s really just beating the shit out of themselves who

wants to either continue training or get back to the point where

they’re competing in God knows what, right? You’ve observed so

many athletes.

What should they do more of? What should they do less of?

Brian MacKenzie: More humility.

Tim Ferriss: More humility.

Brian MacKenzie: That’s why I thought it was so important that you come up here. It

wasn’t, oh, I need to dose Tim with humility; no, it’s like, hey,

come see what it’s like to apply something that you can do for the

rest of your life.

Tim Ferriss: Yep, yep.

Brian MacKenzie: If you can’t see what you are doing, if you think at 20 that I can

just bang away and go as heavy as I want, as hard as I want, as

long as I want, and it’s not going to have repercussions, you’re not

looking at it correctly. And I’ve been there, I’ve done it. And I

think this goes to – like this also comes around to I’ve learned a lot

in the fact that I know – like for one, I don’t have the only

program. What I’m putting out isn’t the only way.

There are a thousand ways. It’s no longer about me being right,

and that’s a lot with what they’re doing. It’s not about being right.

I see the potential of this and yeah, the world now knows standup

paddle. Like they now know it, and it’s not about I’m right, this

was me. Like it’s not that. I think it’s where, as an athlete, if

you’ve beaten yourself up to the point to where it’s like I’ve got to

deal with this injury or I’ve got to deal with this stuff, I’m not what

I used to be, it’s, well, you have a lifetime right now. What do you

want to do? Is it about winning? Is it about being the best at

something or is it about how much better can I be tomorrow at

what I’m doing today and can I just chip away at a little of that?

And that is what not only I have learned to surround myself with,

is people who are doing that, but that’s what’s these two are doing,

that’s what Kelly’s doing, that’s what you’ve done with your

career, is you’ve literally immersed yourself into an environment

where you have bred I’m going to meet people who want to be in

the long game.

And that’s what it’s about. And it really ultimately comes down –

Tim Ferriss: Training for life.

Brian MacKenzie: That’s what the truth is. There’s nothing further from that, is this is

what the truth is.

Laird Hamilton: I have a bunch of friends that are professional athletes, but one

particular one, and we were talking about his training and

everything, and I said – I go let me just say what my perspective is

when you ask me about training. Train in a way so that when

you’re done playing, you can go do all the things you want to do.

And I don’t mean sit around and drink whiskey and smoke cigars; I

mean the things you want to do physically, like all of the things

you want to do. So have a training routine and go about your

playing so that when you’re done doing that, you can walk maybe.

That would be great. How about you can run? How about you can

swim? How about you can bike? How about you can go water ski,

snow ski, or whatever things you want to do because there’s

obviously some things you’re still going to want to do, right? And

so I think that’s the focus is like training for life, like training in a

way that’s sustainable that you can handle.

Like you said, you can’t just take the hammering for the next 60

years and then wonder, well, man, I can’t even walk. And even

when you do it that way, it’s still you have to do all the pieces, too.

You’ve got to remember that, you know, as an athlete you’ve got

to have – it’s the whole picture, it’s not just the physical. It’s the

eating, it’s the sleeping, it’s the relationships. It’s all of those

things, what you’re putting in your brain, what you’re putting in

your mouth. I mean, these are all – who you’re hanging out with.

All of that stuff is going to feed into the performance.

Tim Ferriss: For instance, one thing I’d never seen before, I’ve seen people roll

out on foam rollers, I’ve seen people roll out on weird-looking

devices that, you know, Kelly makes that look like sexual toys.

I’ve never seen someone roll out on a weight plate before.

Laird Hamilton: Well, actually brought that and had the 45 pounds. And I was like

that’s funny because I was just – somebody else had just given me

the kettle bell. So the kettle bell was a wicked one until I got the –

Tim Ferriss: So using the handle of the kettle bell on your –

Laird Hamilton: In the gut. And then Kelly one-upped me with a 45-pound platter.

But I didn’t have that one by the pool, so we used a ten-pound

platter.

Tim Ferriss: Just the plate?

Laird Hamilton: Yeah.

Gabrielle Reece: I think another important thing and that Brian was saying is that

hopefully you hope all of us – and you do this all the time – you’re

the ultimate student because you always have to adjust and be

open. Like this is working but maybe I should change it because

it’s a moving target, and be open to other people’s information and

not be threatened by it and give it a try if you’re not good at it or

whatever. I think that that’s a really important thing because then

you can keep growing and evolving.

So for those athletes, I think it’s just be open and be a student, but

then you have to be disciplined.

Laird Hamilton: You also have to be willing to accept your weaknesses and

cultivate those. It’s like it’s funny because everybody – the strong

people all go lift weights.

Tim Ferriss: The flexible people all go do yoga.

Laird Hamilton: And you’re like, wait, all you flexible people should go bang some

iron and all you big weight-lifters should go do some yoga. It’s

like but we always gravitate towards our strengths because we

want to be in our glory.

Gabrielle Reece: I’m not just sore enough and hurt enough that I’m like, okay, I

give.

Laird Hamilton: Being the student, being the teacher, all that, and also the – and

again, the willingness to fail being one of the key elements to all

those things is ever present because that means you’re willing to

subject yourself to, okay, if somebody knows something I don’t

know, that’s failure.

Some new thing you haven’t done before that you’re not going to

be good at, like people want to come in and be good at stuff. That’s

why the foil board drives half the guys away, because they can’t

just get on it and rip it the first time.

Tim Ferriss: Well, that’s just the foil board. But Brian, you were saying that, I

mean, obviously a lot of very good athletes come and do the pool

workout, and it’s like that’s a big humility sandwich right there.

Brian MacKenzie: We brought a rower up here.

Tim Ferriss: Rower, like crew rower?

Brian MacKenzie: Yeah. She rowed my wife in 2005.

Gabrielle Reece: Like the guys gave her it all.

Brian MacKenzie: Yeah. And we brought her up here and we put her in the pool, and

everybody was just like –

Gabrielle Reece: It was astounding.

Brian MacKenzie: She had the elements though because she was already a

phenomenal swimmer. Super strong. You know, again, having

those key –

Gabrielle Reece: But it was odd because she has all the physical attributes, but she

was very humble.

Laird Hamilton: She wanted to learn.

Brian MacKenzie: The disposition, because you put might and aggression over there,

the water goes, oh, mighty, aggressive, perfect, I’ll just drown you.

And normally as males we just implement aggression and power.

Tim Ferriss: So you mentioned weaknesses and strengths, and I wanted to touch

on something that you mentioned to me earlier today, which I

found very interesting. When we’re doing the ammo box exercise

and you talked about isolating limbs and isolating weaknesses,

could you elaborate on that a little bit?

Laird Hamilton: And listen, we know that if you work on being more ambidextrous

that you get better. It’s like, you know, you throw knives with your

right hand and you’re really good at it; well, start throwing them

with your left hand and it actually makes you better with your

right. But again, about isolation of the weaknesses, is about being

realistic about what your flaws are and working on those. And

that’s why anything to do with instability, when you talk about

balance or in the pool, it really is going to exaggerate those places

that normally you can compensate.

Because it’s hard to compensate in the pool when you have to

swim with your left hand if you have a big dumbbell in your right

hand because there’s no other left hand; there’s only the one you

have. And if it doesn’t work, you’ve got to figure out how to make

it work, right? And you can really – and it really shows you, you

can really see. You know, you throw a ball with your left hand if

you’re right-handed and you feel like, oh, my gosh, whose arm is

this, I can’t even use this arm, or kick with your left leg or even

when you go into stretching and you look at stretching, why is my

right hamstring so much looser than my left hamstring, why is my

left quad so much tighter than my right quad. All those things,

those are all weaknesses at the end.

Tim Ferriss: And what do you feel like your current weaknesses are that you’re

working on?

Laird Hamilton: It’s ongoing. I’ve got a lot of destruction, you know. I’ve been

beating myself up for a long time, so my weaknesses have more to

do with damage. But like I got some hip flexor, some things going

on with my right leg because of the load that I put on it.

Tim Ferriss: Why your right leg?

Laird Hamilton: Well, it’s my back leg in surfing, but it’s also because my left leg

has been broken seven times. So that’s –

Tim Ferriss: From surfing or other things?

Laird Hamilton: Surfing and other things, but I broke my ankle a bunch of times

and arch and a bunch of – all the metatarsals and stuff on the left.

The left ankle and the left foot has taken a lot of the impact. And

so my right has been carrying it, you know, for all these extra

years. So it’s got – you know, my right leg has a couple, maybe

five or ten more years of use than my left leg. So I’m dealing with

that, and the fact is that we’re all asymmetrical. I mean, even – I

told the girls the other day, I go look at the tennis players, I go look

at their throwing hand, and they’re like, oh, my goodness, the

guy’s one arm is so much bigger than the other one. But you don’t

even see it unless you look for it.

Tim Ferriss: Focus on it, yeah.

Laird Hamilton: But, you know, I think that that’s a – again, those are the – you

know, right now, like I say, it’s a hip thing.

You know, it’s – I mean, there’s always – and it’s moving and –

Gabrielle Reece: But even with that, you’re very disciplined. I’ve got to say Laird is

a good patient. Like if he has homework, he does his homework. If

he’s told to do stretches, he does his stretches. So you’re always –

Laird Hamilton: That’s come out of necessity. That’s because I’ve been hurt so

many times. I mean, you really don’t learn anything about yourself

ultimately until you’ve been injured. Back to failure. Whether

something failed or you did something that made you crash and get

hurt, but at the end –

Gabrielle Reece: But you also – the thing is, like even Brian mentioned earlier, the

something that you have that you’ve discovered is he has the faith

that if I do this, then I’ll probably be a little better tomorrow. So

they have that faith. And that, too, Laird knows, okay, if I’m not

feeling well, if I keep trying different things and I stay open and I

do my homework, I can probably be proactive in heling myself get

better.

And I think those elements are important because sometimes what

happens is sometimes if people aren’t feeling well, they’re this

aged athlete or whatever, they’re so far under it, they don’t have

that faith anymore or they don’t understand how to unravel that

knot. And so I think, you know, it’s like priming the pump.

Sometimes the water doesn’t come out right away, but then if you

just keep going, it will start to flow. And I think, you know,

certainly in this situation these guys have seen it enough times, and

I think that’s a really important thing for people to figure out.

Laird Hamilton: Well, if you have had the fortune to actually have been through

and had success, then it gives you hope. You know, when this is

your one time and you’ve been perfectly iron man forever and all

of a sudden something happens, you’re like the whole house

breaks and you’re in shock and you can’t – where if you’ve been

through it and you’ve recovered once and then you get in and had

another thing and you’ve had enough stuff but you made it back

through, you know, it builds the belief that you can do it.

Tim Ferriss: I think another piece of this, and I’d love to ask you about this,

Brian, is that a lot of athletes surround themselves with people who

love to commiserate. So an athlete will be like, oh, well, you know,

I just turned 30; and once you turn 30, like, oh, my God, my aching

joints. I know you guys are both covering your faces, and the

reason is, you know, I’ve – but this is so common and that

everyone sits around and bitches and moans, and they use that as

an excuse.

Gabrielle Reece: But it’s media and society, too.

Tim Ferriss: But what I love about, you know, hanging out with you guys or

like Titus, right, there’s a photograph. So Titus was in the surfing

episode of the Tim Ferriss Experiment, the TV show, and walked

into his garage and there’s this photo of him surfing a 50-plus-foot

wave, and I’m like what is that? He goes, oh, yeah, it was my 50

th

birthday. And I was just like I have no excuses, like shame on me

for ever even thinking I have an excuse. And hanging out with

Rick, for instance, and then I guess the name – is it Don Wildman?

Was that – could you explain to people – and then, Brian, I’d love

to ask you, outside of the examples I just gave, sort of who inspires

you in that same way? Like one my – my only coach really I’m

working with right now is 62, a former four-time world record

holder in Olympic weight-lifting. And he can still do what he used

to do.

I mean, not necessarily in the same weights, but cold, he can just

go out and jump into like [indiscernible] and tennis shoes. And it’s

so inspiring to me because whenever I’m like, oh, woe is me, my

poor left ankle, I’m like suck it up, Ferriss, like give me a break.

So Wildman, can you explain –

Brian MacKenzie: Well, Don Wildman, 82, 80 days of snowboarding last year. I just

went heli snowboarding with him like a month ago or two months

ago in Alaska. Just, you know, I mean, heli boarding is a rigorous

activity, a week straight, you know, 15, 16 runs a day; you know,

the third, fourth day, you’re wobbling, not a word out of the

gunslinger. But when you meet him, you know, his hunger for

information, his youthful enthusiasm, you know, it’s like I think

that is such a key element when you look at any of these guys. You

see an enthusiasm in them, and I think that’s what happens to a lot

of athletes. I think they just lose their enthusiasm. They’re burnt

out. They’ve been doing their sport since they were 5 or 10 and the

pressure around it.

And so I believe ultimately that it’s a conscious decision with a

physical manifestation. And so Don was never accepting it as

being, you know, the guy that hold – he always gives you stuff like

the guy that held the Olympic record for lifting was 52 or 54

before steroids and blah, blah, blah, and all this stuff, you know,

and you see that. But what’s great about somebody like Don,

who’s my guy that I look to, is that just – there it is. You don’t

have to imagine what it looks like. There is it, it’s alive, it’s well. I

mean, I put Don on a bicycle and I can take pretty much almost

anybody on a bicycle unless you’re like a professional bicyclist,

and he will hammer you.

You will be hammered, and you will be asking me how old is the

guy up in the front with the gray hair?

Tim Ferriss: 82. And he can still do, what, like 15, 17 pull-ups and then – he’s a

pull-up machine.

Brian MacKenzie: Amongst other things. That’s a small –

Tim Ferriss: What would you attribute that to? Like why has he not lost his

enthusiasm? And maybe a different way of putting it is for people

who are like, God, I would love to have that enthusiasm, but I just

don’t, like how do I develop that? What do I do? Like I’m willing

to work, like what do I do to have that youthful –

Brian MacKenzie: Well, I mean, I think in his case, he’s got a couple driving forces.

He has guilt, and he loves to eat.

So that’s one. Like Don has a unique thing about that that he can

implement, like he wants to eat whatever he wants. And he loves to

eat like cakes and pies and ice cream, and like he’ll just devour that

stuff. But at the same time, he wants to be – he’s not going to be –

he doesn’t want any fat on his body. So for him, he’s earning it.

Like in his particular case, he’s earning it, right? And also, too, you

know, he always says it takes the piss and vinegar out of you. You

know what I mean? Like he knows how it affects his mood and

how it makes him feel. And so once you subject yourself to it for

long enough and you’re consistent enough, you know, you start to

get addicted to that. You’re like food tastes great, my sleeping is

great, and my sex is unbelievable. You know, it’s like all this stuff

where he just – and then you don’t want to lose that. That’s the

norm, and then that becomes the driving force. And then it’s easier.

And it’s never an option. You never make it – it’s like Gabby says,

you know, it’s not like you don’t choose whether you want to

brush your teeth or not. You don’t go, oh, I’m not going to brush

my teeth this week, you know, I don’t need to do that. It’s just

something –

Gabrielle Reece: Well, the other thing Don does that’s very genius, it goes back to

what Brian said, which is he solicits people to be in his group

because no man can really do it alone. So he always has these guys

around him, most of them quite a bit younger. So the energy goes

into the pot, and everybody rolls.

Brian MacKenzie: Or girls, yeah.

Gabrielle Reece: Well, yeah, one girl.

Brian MacKenzie: But he loves to be a host and bring people with him and do things.

Gabrielle Reece: He’ll give you the bike; he’ll get your music set up for you. He’ll

do everything for you.

Brian MacKenzie: Erin and I do that. It’s like we invite – I’m picking up a girl this

afternoon at LAX who’s going to be staying with us for a week to

train, participate, and it’s like –

Tim Ferriss: Thank you for your 80 units of energy contribution to the pot.

Brian MacKenzie: Now we’re going to absorb that.

It also confirms that you’re – it’s like a reminder, you know,

because, again, it’s like Gabby would say with the stand-up

paddlers. At the end when you go through what you went through

today and I see your face and I know what it did to you and I know

later you’ll be like sitting somewhere and you’ll want to go to

sleep, I’ll be like, hey, just give me the call. Call me because it’s

confirmation that you’re – when you’re alone in something, a

lonely place is an unmotivated place.

Tim Ferriss: That’s a great way to put it.

Brian MacKenzie: It’s very unique to find a complete loner that has full maximum

motivation, really motivated. We are communal. We are

communal, but that’s why we’re subjected to all of this peer

pressure, too. We’re subjected to social pressure of, hey, now

you’re 30, you’re over the hill, what are you going to do now? You

know what I mean? But that’s social stuff that we implement.

But the reverse of that is, hey, we’re all together and you’re 60,

you’re 70, I’m 50, he’s 30, we’re all going, let’s go.

Tim Ferriss: I was talking to my trainer’s wife, who’s awesome, and she also

has a couple of world records. And super sweetheart. And she’s I

guess 55, around there, and she was – she said to me, she’s like

you know when people start to get old, and she said it’s when they

stop jumping, when they stop jumping. We can talk about whether

that’s right or wrong, but the follow-up was even more interesting

to me because she has a daughter, a young daughter, and there was

something stuck up in a tree. And she got up into the tree, and her

daughter was like, Mom, be careful, it’s really high. And she

climbed up 20, 25 feet, got the thing out, and climbed back down.

She was like do you know what it says to a daughter to see her

mom who’s 55 effortlessly like go up into a tree, get it, and come

down? Like it just shows her possibilities that –

Brian MacKenzie: Sometimes like your kids see you train like we train. They may be

like, well, maybe I don’t want to train. Maybe I don’t want to

climb trees, Mom’s crazy.

Tim Ferriss: Brian, who else sort of inspires you, people you look up to as, say,

a Don Wildman type? It doesn’t have to be someone older than

you, but like who are the people you look to as inspiration when

maybe you’re feeling overwhelmed or burned out or we’ll fill in

the blank?

Brian MacKenzie: I do a decent amount of reading and a decent amount of watching

of documentaries and a decent amount of being voyeuristic with

people who are creative, regardless of that creativity. A lot of it has

to do with food sometimes. You look at what they’re doing. Like

20 years ago, maybe a little longer, chefs were not looked at as

anything; they were just in the back cooking. Now if you pay

enough attention, they are these masterful creators of things. You

know, one of the best documentaries I’ve ever seen is a movie

called Spinning Plates. It’s a must-see if you’re really looking to

progress yourself because there’s a guy by the name of – his name

is Grant and he runs one of the top seven restaurants in the world,

and he has this way of dealing with food, much like you see a lot

of great chefs at this point.

Tim Ferriss: What country is he in?

Brian MacKenzie: He’s in the United States.

Tim Ferriss: Is his name Grant Atkins?

Brian MacKenzie: Yes, yes, Grant Atkins. So he’s got Alinea, so they’re following

Alinea; but they’re also following a homestead in like Iowa that’s

just this family-run place that the entire community goes to, and

then they’re following this Mexican place in Tucson, which is

barely making it. And they play the entire show, and you’re

watching this movie or this documentary on all of these places and

as they’re progressing in their trials, their tribulations, and all this

stuff.

And at the end, Grant has seen the entire thing, and you think he’s

this like demigod of food, and he explains what he does. And he

goes, you know, what I’m doing is if somebody can come to my

restaurant and they feel that they taste the food and they feel it and

they come to ask in the back, because they can talk to the chef, and

they say, hey, I feel like I know you. And he goes that’s exactly

what I want to do. In essence, that’s what I do, is it’s like I want

people to see how I see the world. Don’t take everything I do, but

let it inspire you to some degree. But he literally goes at the end of

this thing, the Mexican restaurant is doing the exact same thing,

and it failed at that point in the movie. Literally they went bankrupt

and they didn’t make it and, you know, it didn’t last. And he’s like

but nobody understood that because they think because it’s not

flashy and it’s this thing that they’re not getting that experience,

yet it was that experience. And that homestead, that’s the exact

same thing I’m doing.

They’re just expressing themselves in another way through this,

and we’re not taking the time to understand that. And I think that’s

where one of the missing links is with a lot of people, is we want

this great, huge, massive inspiration, but the fact is every bit of

inspiration you need or want is in front of you and anything you

want if you’re willing to go the length to be obsessive enough

about it. And I think that it’s not just food with me. It’s like I just

watched some coach do something the other day who I remember

this kid like seven years ago at my buddy’s gym, and he was just

this little kid who was just learning and wanting to understand.

He’s doing things right now from a gymnastics perspective that

he’s showing people through social media of him doing things and

how he sees the world that is just amazing, and I’m like I get so

much out of that.

And I’m like I’m going to go and do some stuff that’s like

inspiring me to do that. And it’s what you choose to get out of it I

think.

Tim Ferriss: What’s his name?

Brian MacKenzie: His name is Colin Paraday.

Tim Ferriss: Cool, I’ll check it out. I think it’s so true. I mean, like you were

saying, Laird, no new ideas, just sort of old concepts and ideas

apply to new areas, it’s like you don’t have to look in fitness to

find inspiration to be better in fitness; you can look at someone like

Grant.

Laird Hamilton: Grant’s amazing.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah, I mean, he cooked for I think it was a period of one or two

years with no taste because he had tongue cancer. Who was it?

Beethoven I think who composed without being able to hear. Just

insane. So I want to be really – this is so much fun, but I want to be

respectful of your time. So I’ll just ask one or two more questions.

So why don’t we start with – and I’ll ask the same question of all

three of you. But Gabby, what advice would you give to your 30-

year-old self?

Gabrielle Reece: Well, I always say I would have – and I mentioned this earlier, but

certainly not to take anything personal but also maybe don’t hold

yourself back. I think sometimes – and I think this is a trait of a

female more than of a male. We have a tendency sometimes to sit

on our talents and potentials because we don’t want to offend

anyone or we don’t want to be singled out, you know. I heard a

great story, I had a coach once that said – he was an assistant coach

to the men’s USA volleyball team. And this game, it was one

point, and the coach looked straight at [Indiscernible] and said I

need you to put this ball away and you to win this game, and it was

like, boom, okay. And he said it was amazing, and then he did it.

And then he had his opportunity; he was coaching a bunch of

women at a very high level. And he did the same thing to the

athlete that was the one. And everyone, it didn’t work because all

the other – it was a singling out that women – we have a hard time

with, instead of understanding that you can be singled out but still

for the greater good. So I think I would have maybe not tried to – I

think I sat on some of my talents a little bit and also I think I

certainly, like I said, I took things personally. So I would tell that

person like don’t take it personally. I tell my kids learn how to say,

I’m sorry, that doesn’t work for me. Again, I’ve learned a lot from

being around men. I respect a lot of traits. You can deliver a

message without emotion. Usually women, in order to finally stand

up for themselves, they have to be kind of ramped up, and then it

just comes out ballistic, instead of, no, that doesn’t work for me.

And then we don’t – and also not to then second guess that after

you’ve laid that line down. I think that that’s really important. And

I think, you know, it’s important to, if you have gifts and talents,

whatever they are, don’t feel guilty and bad or weird about it.

You know, you don’t have to be a schmuck. I mean, you don’t

have to – I always tell kids if you’re on the team, you’re lucky; and

if you’re the best one, you’re the luckiest. So it’s calibrating all of

that. I think I would have done that. You know, we always say

we’re grateful for it because it gets you where you are.

Tim Ferriss: Grateful for?

Gabrielle Reece: For whatever things you had to go through that you did or didn’t

do. The notion of regret is – it’s not that it’s pointless, but, you

know, it’s sort of like that gets you to where you are.

Tim Ferriss: Yeah. Good advice. Good advice for anybody. Laird, what advice

would you give your 30-year-old self?

Laird Hamilton: Stop drinking now. Stop drinking right now and patent all your

ideas.

Tim Ferriss: Good advice. They go together well, too. That was good advice.

Brian, what about you?

Brian MacKenzie: I think be patient, be more patient.

Tim Ferriss: And what if your 30-year-old self is like, fuck that, why should I

be patient?

Brian MacKenzie: Well, that’s why. Yeah, you don’t understand just be patient. You

know, I think I was in a big rush at 30. You know, I’m 40 now, and

so it’s like that decade has gone by and it’s like, you know, I am so

– I mean, I’m like, wow, like being patient – like I am so much

more patient now, and there’s much more work to be done. But it’s

like it’s just – when it’s piecemeal and it’s this just – okay, it

makes so much more sense when you’re putting stuff together.

Tim Ferriss: What has helped you most to become more patient?

Brian MacKenzie: Honestly, the experience and the relationships that I have. The

relationships that I used to have versus what I have now, like it’s

not even better inputs, they’re just real people. This is really real. I

have a wife that is just amazing that understands me and on a level

that it’s like, hey, you need to do your thing, you know, I support

it. Let go. Like I get it. Like I have crazy behavior, like, you know,

I get fixated on things that I’m doing, and it’s like she – she may

not get it, but she gets it. And that’s so hard to come by when

you’re 30.

I didn’t know – I didn’t date girls. That was my problem, you

know, maybe that it was like I wasn’t patient enough to date girls

when I was 30 or to be involved with them at 30 that understood

stuff like that. You know, to be involved with people and women

like that is truly a blessing, so patience is definitely a big one at 30.

Gabrielle Reece: What about you?

Tim Ferriss: I would have told myself to start meditating; it’s not just for

hippies. Start sitting down. Rick is actually – Rick Urban is one of

the – he and another friend – I was just going through a very

anxious, rushed like aggressive period where I had a short fuse and

was just, you know, rushed to get everything done.

And spoke with two close friends. One is Chase Jarvis, world-class

photographer, amazing guy, and he was like, you know, maybe

you should try TM or other types of meditation. And then I was

like, 1500 bucks to get a mantra, no, thanks; that sounds like a cult.

And then I had coffee with Rick, and he was like have you ever

thought about TM? And I’m like, goddamn it, this TM, all right,

fine. But just I would have said there are many – I worry with

these hypotheticals of screwing up, like causing an unintended

butterfly effect in the past, so I’m like I wouldn’t have changed

anything, I’m not sure I want to change anything, but the – it’s

hard for me to see how taking 20 minutes first thing in the morning

to meditate would have produced any bad results for me.

Laird Hamilton: That goes back to patience.

Gabrielle Reece: In the book that Laird talks about, Natural Born Heroes, if you’re

hunched forward – well, first of all, if you’re hunched forward, you

go into fight or flight, right?

You have a physiological response. And now that we’re all on our

gadgets, we’re all perpetually in this position, so it creates anxiety.

Brian MacKenzie: We’re looking around. So we’re in this position and then we’re –

we have an instinctual thing to know what’s going on around us,

and we don’t while we’re doing it. And that just grinds on us.

Gabrielle Reece: So I think we’re actually putting ourselves unknowingly in

positions physically that are also creating an emotional response,

one of them being anxiety and angst because we’re not living fully

or closer to our natural the way it should be.

Tim Ferriss: Totally agree. I’ve been trying to take time every day at the very

least, even if I’m doing a lot of writing, because I also think we’re

going to find a lot of visual problems with people who are only

focusing between 8 and 12 inches all day long. So I try to focus on

things in the distance and really take in –

Laird Hamilton: Like solar gazing. That will be – you could work on that. That

would really help your vision.

You talk about meditation, Wim, you do that program, because his

whole thing is about meditation. I mean, at the end, it’s all these

drills, but it’s ultimately about meditation. It’s a mechanical

meditation. It’s not this – it’s not a swammy kind of ethereal thing

where you’re trying to grab something in space. This is

mathematical.

Brian MacKenzie: And he’s the first one to say I don’t have the answer and this guy is

going to be better at it than me and it’s okay.

Gabrielle Reece: He’ll say we don’t have to get there today, we’re going to do the

best we can. I’m like, okay.

Tim Ferriss: I’ll have to check him out. So if you guys could make – this will be

a last question before I just ask where people can find everything

you all are up to. Brian, if you could make one ask of the people

listening or one recommendation, what would it be?

Brian MacKenzie: Honestly, it’s like what you asked in the sauna.

It’s like what’s tickling your fancy. And it’s the breathing, being

more aware of your breathing because, quite honestly, it’s exactly

what Gabby just brought up and we were just talking about, is

when you’re – you can’t breathe correctly when you’re here, when

you’re collapsed. It’s all about a position, and that’s basically more

or less what Kelly and I have really worked our careers at, is it’s

about position and the way you move is I understand what you’re

saying, like I see what’s going on inside. You know, you can’t lie

to me at this point. So I think for me ultimately it’s about

breathing, and honestly that’s – I would never have arrived at the

meditation thing had it not been for the breathing and it being like

this is fun. Like I’m having a blast seeing what I get out of this and

how I feel after doing this and going through this stuff. I think if

people really were willing to figure – see that stuff, you know, to

take the time to do that, it takes a couple weeks and then you’re

like, wow, this is really something like I have not thought about,

regardless of what the breathing is.

Tim Ferriss: Where would you suggest someone start with that?

Brian MacKenzie: I honestly think people should start with Wim Hoff. His method,

Google it. It’s a cheap course for ten weeks. Of course, you know,

we’re tweaking and playing with other things and that’s what we

do, but I honestly think the guy – and we’ll probably get him out

here at some point. The fact is, is it’s like I don’t care if you’re a

cross-fitter, if you’re a professional athlete in some other sport; if

you don’t breathe right, you’ve got a fault going on. You’ve got

something going on, and you can expand upon it and you can

understand much more. You know, like I said with the Eckert

thing, Eckert’s thing is the breath because the breath is now.

There’s nothing after. You’re not thinking about the past, you’re

not thinking about the future, you’re focused on what’s happening

right now.

Laird Hamilton: And the breath and the spirit are as one because when the baby is

slapped on the butt and take its first breath, I’m just saying that

when the breath leaves, the spirit leaves.

Brian MacKenzie: That’s the breath, is the spirit.

Tim Ferriss: So Gabby, what would your ask or recommendation be?

Gabrielle Reece: Well, I ask that everyone – you know, I always say that we only

appreciate our health when we don’t have it. And I think, you

know, through injuries and things I’ve learned to appreciate my

health. But I think, you know, sort of besides your friends and

family that the most important thing to covet and take care of is

yourself. It’s just to the best of their ability. Like if you’re not

walking today, go walk. If you’re still smoking, you know, smoke

less. Like it’s not about get it all done all at once, but just finding a

way to make that a real priority. And then my ask would be – I

always say that I’ll go first.

And so that means if I’m checking out at the store, I’ll say hello

first. If I’m coming across somebody and make eye contact, I’ll

smile first. If people would experiment with that in their life a little

bit, be first, because – not all times, but most times it comes in

your favor. But then the response is pretty amazing. Like you’ll see

somebody. I was at the park the other day with the kids. Oh, my

God. Hurricane Harbor, it’s like hell. And there were these two

women a little bit older than me. We couldn’t be more different,

right? And I walked by them and I just looked at them and smiled.

The smile came to their face so instantly, they’re ready; but you

have to go first because now we’re being trained in this world,

nobody’s going first anymore. So for me it’s like take care of

yourself because that also helps you go first sooner if you feel

pretty good, and go first.

Tim Ferriss: Laird?

Laird Hamilton: Well, they went first.

Tim Ferriss: They did steal some good material.

Laird Hamilton: And I think part of – of course, the breath is – that’s our food and

that’s what we get when we don’t eat and that’s our – the breath of

life. And, you know, in going first and cherishing the temple, you

know, I think what Gabby said about going first leads to what I

think, too. And again, quoting my latest favorite book Natural

Born Heroes, that the compassion, that I think compassion is –

exercise compassion every day. If you could actually go out and

just exercise some form of compassion, no matter what it be, I

think that’s some powerful stuff. I think it would be a different

world if people went and were compassionate. I have to remind

myself. That’s an ask but that’s also a do for me. I’m asking

myself to do it. And again, I use that as, you know, what’s good for

the goose is good for the gander, which is, you know, ask what you

want of yourself, and then I think it’s probably – you know, it’s

like I like stand-up, I like foiling, I like this, you know, I like the

breathing. Other people will like it, too, you know. Mine is – I

think I’m going with the compassion.

Tim Ferriss: It seems like going first is a good small step in that direction.

Gabrielle Reece: And I think the most important thing from all of us would be don’t

do it – it’s about each person doing it their way, that discovery, not

Laird’s way or Brian’s way or Gabby’s way or Tim’s way. It’s

about does any of the conversation spark you to motivate you to

find your way because that is the right way for you. I don’t believe

that any of us believe in saying this is the way. I mean, certainly

breathing, it’s hard to get around it. But ultimately when do you do

it? How do you want to do it, whatever that is. How do you want to

eat, whatever. Outside, inside exercise. But it’s really more about

you’ve got to put energy into finding your way.

Laird Hamilton: His is physical, hers is emotional, compassion, but – and then just

drinking more liquids, hydration. Drink more water.

Brian MacKenzie: It’s like be an experiment. We’ve gotten so far away from that, and

I think this is where science has really led us because science has

really gotten far off. In fact, everybody in science is trying to prove

themselves right. That’s not what science is. Science is not about

proving yourself right; science is about learning something new.

And that is – if you aren’t willing to experiment and learn it your

way, that’s how it’s going to make sense. Don’t just try Wim’s

way. I’m like seven different breathing techniques in at this point,

which is just, you know, radical. But it’s like that’s where it’s led

to. And Laird has done it as well, and that’s the thing. Be an

experiment so that you understand what works and what doesn’t.

Tim Ferriss: And also, I mean, what’s really inspired me hanging out with all of

you guys is that another way of looking at experimentation is

playing. Like you guys have an element of play that I think many

people lose as soon as they graduate from high school or college.

Gabrielle Reece: I appreciate that.

Laird Hamilton: Sometimes we have a tendency as we get older to make our play

become more of a destructive process. And it’s like what I said

about Wildman and I said about every single guy, and I guarantee

you your trainer has retained his youthful enthusiasm.

Tim Ferriss: Definitely. They both play all the time.

Laird Hamilton: Exactly. If the mom is climbing trees, then I guarantee you that –

and it’s about retention of your youthful enthusiasm, that that’s

really what it’s about, right, having fun and that spirit of that child

is what will lead you to be an older child. You’ll be older young,

but you’ll be young. You’ll be young.

Tim Ferriss: This is great. I want to close with just asking each of you where we

can learn more about what you’re up to, your work and so on. So

Brian?

Brian MacKenzie: I think the easiest way to get a hold of me is through – or find out

more about what we’re doing is through athletecell.com. You can

get a hold of me there or you can find out our training information

and stuff like that.

I’m most active on either Twitter or Instagram. Like I will get

active with people on Twitter who behave.

Tim Ferriss: What’s your handle?

Brian MacKenzie: @IMunscared. Tattooed on the knuckles. It’s just another way of

me saying I’m going to deal with humility today, I’m going to deal

with fear. And it’s just a constant reminder. So those are both my

handles for that, and I’m pretty active on there.

Tim Ferriss: Cool, okay. IMunscared on both Twitter and Instagram. Gabby?

Gabrielle Reece: Well, I have a site, gabbyreece.com, but most of my energy right

now is in – I’ve developed a curriculum called High X, and so

there’s highxtraining.com. There’s a community fun aspect to it.

Anyway, so I’m putting a lot of my energy into that at the moment,

so that’s been my main focus.

Tim Ferriss: And how can people –

Gabrielle Reece: I am active on Instagram and Twitter, which will be funny when

you get to Laird.

Tim Ferriss: Laird less frequent.

Gabrielle Reece: He’s smart about that. Laird, you’re the smartest of us all, honey.

I’m @gabbyreece on Twitter and Instagram.

Tim Ferriss: I think that the doing is still the most important, but social media

can add velocity. It can lead something that is already going in the

right direction. But the doing is still – I take heart. [1:51:07] The

doing, it still helps us stand on the merit, but the social media stuff

can definitely add velocity or add speed. So Laird, where can

people find –

Laird Hamilton: You can find me in the Pacific Ocean.

Gabrielle Reece: Well, you have lairdhamilton.com and you’re on Facebook, Laird

Life is your Instagram.

Laird Hamilton: lairdstandup.com. But you can see some of the other stuff, like the

latest – we just redid the site on gulfport.com. Gulfport.com is our

company that we started that’s just exploding right now. The

gulfports are taking over the golf courses, like stand-up is taking

over the ocean. But lairdstandup. Do we still have our joint stuff?

Gabrielle Reece: Oh, gabbyandlaird.com, yeah, all our health and fitness stuff is all

free. It’s on gabbyandlaird.com.

Tim Ferriss: Cool. And we’ll put all these links in the show notes, guys. So if

you missed anything or you lost something in your note-taking,

you can check out the show notes and links and so on at

fourhourworkweek.com/podcast. Guys, this is awesome. Thanks so

much. This is fantastic. Everybody, check out what they’re up to,

say hi to them on the webs, be nice, and play. Until next time,

thanks for listening.